Direct from Web 2.0

Coach —
Some of what you're discussing in your post was widely debated here, here and here.
Geva

By Geva Perry(http://gevaperry.typepad.com/) on Nov 6, 2007

Coach,
I aggree with you on some points, I thing tooling of Java is better but only when it comes to the middleware point, if you look at the user interface stuff, I think the tooling is poor (JSP editor or JSF based ones have all disappointed me).
Another reason for me is that Java is too complete: let me explain. Imagine a new developer entering the Java arena with looks at the Javadoc for the J2EE, he will get lost in the long list of different packages and APIs. And that does not includes the list of open source or commercial frameworks that you should also use.

By Jeff MAURY on Nov 8, 2007

There is a follow up blog (http://cmsreport.com/node/1348).
Coach Wei, Java developer, asks the following question on his blog.
Here is a question that I have been pondering on and off for quite a while: Why do “cool kids” choose Ruby or PHP to build websites instead of Java?
At work we're actually moving many of our in-house desktop applications from Python to Java. I wouldn't be too surprised to see us migrate more PHP Web applications over to Java too for some of the reasons Wei gives in his blog post. But I have a theory as to why PHP and Ruby could be considered “cool” and it has less to do with Java's features and more to do with the culture of open source. …………..

By guest on Nov 9, 2007

Geva:
thanks for the info. These links are excellent.

By Coach Wei on Nov 10, 2007

This post is published on Web2 Journal (http://www.web2journal.com/read/457324.htm) and stirred a lot of discussions:
#26 Paul Sundling commented on the 10 Nov 2007
One of the big problems with this article is that it only lists 3 Java options, all of which are lacking. The answer that is clear to me is Velocity and Spring MVC. For the most part you just to learn SimpleFormController and Velocity templates, which is even more basic than PHP.
If there is a team working on the project, this will well with clear separation. For the most part, the front end developer doesn't need to know much with all the business logic on the back end side.
The hardest part is to get the initial configuration going and you can do that by using AppFuse.
#25 Alexei commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Wow.. where to begin.
I think one of the key problems with Java is the sheer number of frameworks out there actually dilutes the availability of useful information for whatever path you do choose for your application. Rails is a very opinionated framework and there are clearly defined ways of doing things - this is attractive to some people. Top that off with Ruby which is a real joy to work with. I mean, seriously.. its a great language, and if you like terse, non-verbose code.. then Ruby is very appealing. This is something Java doesn't do as well.
Another reason Rails is appealing for web developers is you get so much out-of-the-box. A lot of Ajax stuff is baked right in so you dont have to go outside the framework to do things like autocompletes and basic callbacks.. this saves developers time and lets them prototype rapidly.
PHP is appealing I think for sortof similar reasons.. although its very un-opinionated.. It's a lightweight language and very quick to get stuff up and running. Although lately I've been less impressed by PHP in general.. I'm getting tired of inconsistencies in the API, wierd documentation, and buggy distributions.
Another comment I have is about what you said about these other languages being somehow fundamentally limiting when you try to do 'tough stuff'. I'd say that's true and not true at the same time. There may not be easy ways, for example, to interface directly with custom hardware in Rails.. but as soon as you start to need to do that kind of stuff, you can easily write those components in C++ (which you probably should anyway) and use the C libraries for rails to tie into your web application. They have great facilities for binding to external applications when you dont want to attempt something in script.
Anyway I'd be interested to hear your comments on this.
#24
Claude Coulombe commented on the 9 Nov 2007
1) Many hosting companies doesn't provide cheap support for TOMCAT and J2EE server.
2) Many projects begin small and cheap. So it's easier to start with low cost hostings and tools. After, it's too late you are caught with your previous technological decisions.
SOLUTION : SUN should offer cheap Java based solutions to hosting companies.
#23
jsloan commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Your question “So what is the ideal architecture…” has already been answered by the [[visit link] Shared nothing architecture] crowd.
Perhaps you should rephrase your question to “Can you build the ideal web architecture with Java?”
#22
Don Babcock commented on the 9 Nov 2007
You asked:
“So what is missing from the Java world? What is the ideal architecture to build a website using Java?
Easy. ColdFusion. Since CF is JAVA under the covers it offers almost seamless transition between CF tag coding for the “easy” stuff yet if you need the power of Java it is right there at your fingertips. For example, we use JRules, a commercial Java rules engine, for business logic. Adding to the CF server was a simple as adding a folder containing the JAR files to the server classpath. Then you just use it right from the CF environment. Most of our staff are NOT java programmers but they can easily use CF because it hails from the HTML world they started in. Those of us from the Java side can just drop in our JARS and roll as well as make them available to the non-Java developers via CF components. It is a beautiful marriage from a number of perspectives.
#21
Jim commented on the 9 Nov 2007
1) The purpose of the project should be a prominent factor in the choice of tools for execution. If your project ranges from a non-transactional content display system all the way to a mid-volume (or higher) commerce site, choices about programming language can be subordinated to questions of cost, design, and the expertise of available resources. The fact is that PHP, Perl, python, java, etc. etc. can all get these jobs done to the satisfaction of clients who need projects of this size and scope.
2) If your project needs to be a high-availability, fault tolerant, high-volume etc. etc., then the technical factors including language need to be more carfully evaluated for their supportability, stability, longevity, standards adherence, fault tolerance, blah, blah, blah. If your project is this big, then these choices should be made by engineers, not designers, marketers, or a couple of beleaguered staff.
SO
If your project is of the first type, then it's true that as many have said, its just easier from start to finish to implement in php or ruby or perl because 1) they're easier to learn, 2) they have more hosting support, 3) there's more/more-accessible FOSS for small to medium sized web apps in those languages 4) using j2ee for a cms or shopping cart is like hitting a nail with a pile-driver, 5) Anyone who knows the big standard languages (C, C++, Java) can do php, but less so the other way around, 6) PROTOTYPING (which too few projects/orgs do anyway) does not need to be DOD/IEEE-certified-fault-tolerant-blah-blah and can be done faster/cheaper with LAMP
Why am i giving you all this free consulting?
#20
lifewithryan commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Java is way to complicated anymore. Too many pieces being plugged in here and there, too much configuration, and then a bloated application server sitting in the middle of all that. On top of that, most of the tools used to write Java are getting more and more complicated to use. Don't even try running Eclipse, JBoss, and MySQL on your laptop unless you got 2GB of ram and nothing else running. With PHP, (or even rails — I've done some– and now Django) all I need is Apache, a module and vi. And I can listen to my tunes, browse digg, and check email at the same time with plenty of resources left over. Java is great, but I foresee it becoming the Cobol of the new era. Your banks, and larger financial companies will probably use it for their large in-house applications, but the new kids on the block coming out of college will absolutely GROOOAAANN when a customer comes to them and asks if they can look at a problem on the Java system… I use Java…I love it, it pays my bills…I hate Java, its like sitting between two bulky men on an Trans-Atlantic flight in coach.
#19
Sam D commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Based on many of these comments and references to J2EE which has been replaced by JEE current 5 and 6 which will improve upon it vastly with features such as Web Beans. It appears that amazing Java related technologies such as JBoss Seam, Groovy ( which is a dynamically typed form of Java ) and I'm even going to throw in JEE5 haven't obtained the exposure they deserve.
JBoss Seam has a tool called seam-gen which will do the same sort of deal that Rails does for Ruby you can design your db model point seam-gen at it and bang. You have all the scaffolding and pages required to do CRUD.
No I do not represent or work on those technologies mentioned but I have used them and have worked quite a bit with several dynamically typed languages in the past. Although I haven't used Ruby I have worked in large Perl and even TCL based projects. The current project I am working on uses PHP and yes these languages can let you bang some stuff out quickly but in my experience that as more and more developers come on board and the project really needs to scale things can get out of hand quickly.
As for the hosting, this is really unfortunate. I haven't had to deal with the hosting specifics myself in the past so I can't really comment. I am seeing a lot of people asking about Sun's GlassFish or the productized version Sun Java Application server now so I hope this does become better.
S.D.
#18
john redden commented on the 9 Nov 2007
This is a case of “be careful what you wish for, you might get it.” The Holy Grail in the 1990's for OO lauguages, was reusable objects.” In our middle tier and data access tier Java software we use/reuse thousands of objects. This presents a huge learning curve for new comers to Java. It is very easy to get started with PHP and Ruby. Most the of the visualization developers at our company user PHP. And I notice that the number of idioms on the web pages decreases when using PHP. Another change is that PHP5 has matured considerably.
So what did our company do? We went Caucho/Resin which compiles PHP5 into Java byte code and presents the possibility of exposing all Java view objects to the visualization developers.
Bottom Line: For newbie developer, Java is difficult to learn
#17
Chris commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Java is too bloated for building small-scale and medium sized websites. There is just as much, if not more, support for PHP also. And if you're using PHP then it's simple to also use MySQL instead of Ruby, which is crap in the first place. Also, many web hosting companies have servers configured correctly to not support some of the frameworks w/in Java such as servlets and JSP's. I'm not even going to get into how and why J2EE is complete overkill and slow to build a large website.
#16
Marc commented on the 9 Nov 2007
Just like many other comments already stated: lack of good hosting! There are some, but they are rare and more expensive than php. I think this is due to the lack of a good “shared” application/servlet servers: every application typically needs its own JVM and almost its own server. On the other hand it's trivial to host many php sites on the same apache server.
Hopefully with virtualization improving constantly, we will see more cheap hosting packages that give you an independent, pre-configured, and managed virtual server.
#15
robert commented on the 9 Nov 2007
I'm a Java developer, but I prefer PHP. My primary reason is that Java documentation on the web is (a) disorganized, (b) written by people with PhD's who never learned to write coherently, and (c) filled with out of date, nearly identical, yet subtly different API's. Microsoft has the game won on documentation to date, but PHP developers as a whole document things very clearly, concisely, and in language that is accessible by anyone.
#14
Jon Evans commented on the 9 Nov 2007
> I bet there are more Java frameworks than the population in China.
You say that like you think it's a good thing!
#13
Alessandro Ronchi commented on the 9 Nov 2007
I think one reason (not the only one) is that many developers come from web design world. PHP is much more simple to learn/use than Java: you can copy and paste a code snippet in a php file, put (not “deploy”) it on your 10$/year hosting space and see it working. Learning Java is a matter of object oriented programming, something far from designing a web page and filling it with some php code snippets. Regards, Alessandro
#12
OHo commented on the 9 Nov 2007
same for me and I guess thousands others: availability of cheap hosting for everyone. I learned & used Java first, then had to switch because of the hosting offerings my customers typically use.
#11
Bozhidar Bozhanov commented on the 9 Nov 2007
The hosting is the reason (mainly) - I'm a Java developer, and I still make php sites because of no decent Java hosting around. And if any, the prices are not attractive.
#10
Richard Tandoh commented on the 8 Nov 2007
I think the fact that PHP hosting packages are ten-a-penny and cost little or nothing has a lot to do with it. Java hositng, I find, is still hard to come by and relatively costly.
#9
Sam D commented on the 8 Nov 2007
Have you guys looked at JBoss Seam? If not I think it might be worth your while to do a bit of investigation on it.
Many of the great ideas will be incorporated into JEE6 as Web Beans and simplifies things significantly. It will basically collapse the communication between the web-tier and ejb-tier making the interaction a lot less cumbersome. That is a very simplified comment though, there is much much more that developers will see out of this in all phases of development. Here is the link to the JSR:
[visit link]
Oh and one more thing, do not rule out Groovy. Being able to mix and match Java with Groovy is pretty amazing so you have the best of both worlds without having to sacrifice. JBoss Seam already supports Groovy.
#8
ac commented on the 8 Nov 2007
For me it's the hosting - if you're making a small site for fun you don't want to pay big bucks for java hosting - PHP is easier to find and a lot cheaper
#7
Dave J commented on the 8 Nov 2007
I find Java too cumbersome for the front-end, but great for encapsulating business logic and objects. So, in a MVC design, I like ColdFusion for the V, Java for M, and one or the other for the C.
#6
John C. commented on the 8 Nov 2007
Definitely not Java, complexity/framework overload and an obvious design-by-committee feel to it. Rails would be interesting; conventions build right in to alleviate the pain. But probable I'd choose PHP, because it just works (many major sites have proven this fact) and you do not need a PhD. to use it.
#5
Michael commented on the 8 Nov 2007
I am a long-term Java guy and do much of my web stuff in Rails now. Why? The efficiency of Rails. I think I am about 5-10 times faster with Rails. You dont believe me?
Try building a little db-driven site with Rails and, say, JSF/Hibernate/Spring. You'll see.
#4
Johan Chouquet commented on the 8 Nov 2007
Hello,
I'm also a Java/J2EE developer.
Unfortunately, I don't have a way to manage directly what is installed on the machine that hosts my website. The inconvenient of Java is that Java needs a JVM installed of the machine to run. Of course, this is a good thing for portability, but when we don't have access to the machine, sometimes it's just impossible to install Java. So, I think that's why Java developers are going to PHP. All hosts supports PHP, but not always Java.
#3
VelocityWebDev commented on the 8 Nov 2007
I don't know that it matters - a majority of the sites that are built using PHP or Ruby are quickly redesigned and redeployed. They are disposable sites. Although many use them for years, the reality is instant gratification. Too many Java developers (scripted interpreted language with c++ as it's kernel?) over think their solutions. I've seen it and done it! So I can point fingers at myself and others. For that matter, this question can be taken a step further, why not just develop in C++ or C or assembler? Because it doesn't appeal. So, I guess the real answer is, regardless of technical background and desire to make Java THE web development language - it too is not universally appealing to the masses.
#2
Peter Blazejewicz commented on the 7 Nov 2007
Hi Coach,
here is where I see why Grails: [[visit link] Grails home page] [[visit link]]
is lacking solid backend ;(. I don't see it mentioned, Something that is perfectly suited for development targets you've pointed out (where PHP/Ruby win againts Java),
regards,
Peter Blazejewicz
#1
PHP News Desk commented on the 7 Nov 2007
Here is a question that I have been pondering on and off for quite a while: Why do 'cool kids' choose Ruby or PHP to build websites instead of Java? I have to admit that I do not have an answer. Why do I even care? Because I am a Java developer. Like many Java developers, I get along with Java well. Not only the language itself, but the development environments (Eclipse for example), step-by-step debugging helper, wide availability of libraries and code snippets, and the readily accessible information on almost any technical question I may have on Java via Google. Last but not least, I go to JavaOne and see 10,000 people that talk and walk just like me.

By jj on Nov 10, 2007

Part of the reason for Rails and Django being so popular is due to the fact that Python and Ruby are superior languages.

By Anonymous on Nov 11, 2007

I don't know really, but personally i think http://fivq.com/ is good place for job seekers.

By teno on Nov 12, 2007

from web2journal:
Comments Pour in As Nexaweb Founder Asks “Why Isn't Facebook Built in Java?”
Coach Wei's Question Stikes a Chord in Javaland:
http://www.web2journal.com/read/465123.htm

By Anonymous on Nov 23, 2007

The debate on which is better will go on forever. At MorpheXchange, we're as confused and as divided that we plan on using both to stop the wrangling, at least temporarily!

By friam on Dec 14, 2007

Java or not largely depends on if you are a content company or technology company.
I am a founder of a SaaS startup in China. 2 years ago we developed B/S app in DRP area with lots of effort. Eventually we had no choice but tossed B side of app and went for java swing for standalone rich client app( not applet) after failing in jumping start sales.
We selected java swing for following reasons:
1) client-side cache
2) multi-thread
3) its object oriented feature
client-side cache and multi-thread are very important for web application to be useful where internet connection is unreliable and slow. And we hate to see thousands of lines of codes in one page,so oo is our choice. When we changed to java, ajex wasn't there. I am not sure if Ajex can achieve same goals.

By Frank Zhang (http://www.oksbt.com/) on Jan 1, 2008

There isn't any technology that always is the right choice for any projects.
PHP is a scripting language only for web pages. Java and .Net are full-featured software development languages for standalone, client/server and server-side applications. For enterprise applications, Java clearly is the better choice.
If you just need to code simple pages, PHP would be easier for average Joes. But JSP will do the work if you are good J2EE developer.
When you develop applications with Java, you would use other open source libraries. For PHP, you can find many applications instead of libraries.
Java is not only open source technology, but also controlled by industry standards and specifications. You shouldn’t have major concerns about its future releases. But for PHP, I am not certain of what it will become in the future.
The commercial supports from big players have a big impact on the decision of which technology should be used for large companies. Java will be less risky.

By Anonymous on Jan 8, 2008